8 November, 1996

Click HERE for the interview in Real Audio

Nardwuar: Who are you?

Robert Anton Wilson: Okay, Iím Robert Anton Wilson to my readers, Bob Wilson to my friends, and "that old crank" to my neighbors.

Robert Anton Wilson, are you a witch?
Was that "a witch" or "a bitch?"

A witch! Robert Anton Wilson.
Which kind of witch?

You know a witch. Youíve done a few readings in Victoria. Thatís like the witching capital of Canada. Are you a witch, or did you gravitate there?
I have been a witch I probably still am a witch.

What happened to Timothy Learyís head?
Well, there are various versions of that, the accepted version is that he gave up on cryonics, and had his whole body cremated. But thereís a myth or a legend going around, or a rumour that may be true, for all I know. And that was all put on to prevent the authorities from interfering with his plans to commit suicide when the cancer got too painful, and have his head preserved, and so actually it was only his body that was cremated. The head was preserved, secretly. I donít know whether thatís true or not; as I say, itís a rumour. Thereís another rumour going about, that the Fed.'s have seized his ashes because of a high quality of controlled substances in his ashes, and nobody knows what the street value might be.

So, where is Hitlerís cock?
Whereís what?

Whereís Hitler's cock? Is Hitlerís cock right next to Timothy Learyís head? Where do they hide these things, Robert Anton Wilson? Whereís Hitlerís cock? Whereís Timothy Learyís head?
Well, I donít know where Learyís head is hidden. Hitlerís cock, I assume, went up in the bunker with the rest of Hitler.

Robert Anton Wilson, are you a CIA agent?
Ahh, if I were, I would deny it.

Are you an agent of disinformation?
Absolutely, and information.

So how come you havenít been knocked off? Doesnít that lead to the fact that you are a CIA agent, or that you are an agent of disinformation, Robert Anton Wilson?
Well, I tell you that Mae Brussell accused me of being an agent of the Rockefeller conspiracy. And I confessed that it was true, and I that my cellar is stacked high with gold bars that are brought every month, by David Rockefeller, personally. And Iím sure, up until her death, that she went around showing that letter to prove to people that I had confessed. People who want to believe such things are perfectly free to believe them. Woof, woof, woof.

Robert Anton Wilson, you mentioned Mae Brussell. Are you aware of the work of Dave Emory, her kind devoted follower, Ďcause he does a show, every week on CiTR Radio in Vancouver.
Yeah, he does a show here too. I listen occasionally. One night, he got so tangled in his conspiracy theory that I thought that he was accusing the Unification Church of masterminding the bombing of Pearl Harbour. And I asked my wife, "Is he really saying that the Unification Church bombed Pearl Harbour?" She said, "No, but it is almost that tangled!"

And heís here every Sunday night, on CiTR Radio in Vancouver, 10:00pm-12:00am. But youíre right here, right now on CiTR Radio. You are, indeed, Robert Anton Wilson, arenít you, Robert Anton Wilson?
Well, thatís what I claim, others claim that Iím an android that the CIA put in my place after they murdered me. But I claim that Iím still Robert Anton Wilson and not an android impersonating Robert Anton Wilson.

Robert, Iím continually fascinated with Timothy Leary. Was he a CIA agent? Did the CIA supply him with LSD? Dave Emory and Mae Brussell go on all about that, and in the book Acid Dreams, thereís mentions of it as well: Timothy Leary being a part of the CIA, and having the LSD supplied to him.
Well, I remember once we were both speaking at NYU about virtual reality software and hardware, and some group put out a leaflet, outside, saying that Leary and I were both CIA agents, and I showed it to Tim, because I knew this would amuse him. And he said, "Gee, I wish this was legal evidence, I could make the CIA pay me for the last 18 years." But, if he was an agent, he was really a sucker, because he never collected a penny from them.

Robert Anton Wilson, you donĻt really believe or deny stuff. You kinda look "in between" there. You donĻt believe it; you donít deny it. You believe that somewhere between belief and denial is the truth. Is that true?
Well, my general feeling is that most of the world falls in the category between 100% proven or 100% disproven. And we live among millions and millions, or as Carl Sagan would say, millions and millions of maybes, and only a few definite yesís and noís here and there. And theyíre usually only temporary.

Why should everyone know about William Reich? Who was William Reich? What should people know about William Reich?
Itís actually Wilhelm, which influenced his psychology profoundly. Imagine, growing up in a country with an absolute monarch and having the same name as him, and a last name that means "state" in German. Wilhelm Reich itís like he was named after the state and head of state. He was a psychologist who developed theories so radical that, like Leary, he landed in jail. He fared even worse than Leary; they not only threw him in jail, they burned all of his books, too. He was thrown out of the psycho-analytical society for being too Marxist; thrown out of the Communist party for being too Freudian; thrown out of the Socialist party for being too anarchistic; thrown out of Sweden for doing the kind of research that made Masters and Johnson famous twenty years later, but he did it twenty years too soon, and the world was not ready for it. Then, he came to this country where he was thrown in jail as a cancer quack for publishing results in which he didnít claim to cure cancer at all but said it might be useful and it was worthy of "further investigation." And anybody who made that many enemies must have had something important to say. I think that Reichís books are very important, Iím glad that theyíre back in print again.

Did he really battle UFOs in the desert with an orgone gun?
He thought he did. Thatís the stage of his career thatís the most controversial, but my personal opinion is that at very end Reich did turn paranoid. Somebody whoíd been persecuted as persistently as he had for a period of thirty years began to see persecution everywhere, and I think that he went over the edge. He imagined that he was being persecuted from outer space as well as from this planet.

Robert Anton Wilson, how could an orgone gun thwart a UFO? What was the idea behind that?
He believed UFOs were some kind of living ... he had different theories about the UFOs but at one point he believed that UFOs were living matter... living energy form that was hostile to orgone, which is the life energy. And itís sorta like the UFOs were sorta like the kind of thing that turns land into deserts and people into old crabs or cranks.

Why were people so scared of orgone research?
Well, partly if Reich was right, almost most every doctor and psychiatrist in the world has got to go back, and start over and study Reich, and give up their present ideas, which nobody likes to hear. And the other part is that his theories are very radical, sexually. He believed in extreme sexual freedom, not rampant promiscuity, but an extreme right to choose. And total abolition of laws that try to govern peopleís sexual behavior.

Robert Anton Wilson, who flies UFOs? Thereís some people like Bill Lynn, who believe that secret service agents are flying these UFOs with stolen Tesla technology, that it isnít actually aliens, itís actually stolen Tesla technology flying these UFOs, and thereís no aliens at all. What do you think about that?
Well, my two favourite theories about UFOs are the Personger theory. Personger is a Canadian who lives in Ottawa, a behavioural scientist. That means he doesnít want to be called a psychologist. Personger offers the model that UFOs are energy fluctuations which cause poltergeist disturbances, flying furniture, electrical malfunctions, car motors stalling, televisions going on and off, refrigerators turning on and off... that kind of thing. Strange lights zooming around and if you get too close, it alters your brain waves, and causes you to hallucinate. That theory seems very plausible, and accounts for a lot of UFOs. But thereís also a theory I like, by John Kiel, which says that theyíre an intelligent energy form, thatĻs coexisted with us from the beginning of time, and has been playing head games with us. They are the same ones, as Kiel sees it, who pass themselves off as angels and demons in the middle ages, and as dead relatives when spiritualism was popular, and now theyíre passing themselves off as extra-terrestrials, but theyíre an energy form that is very indifferent to human beings, but loves playing games and deceiving us. Those two models make more sense to me than the idea that theyíre all hallucinations or the idea that theyíre spaceships.

What do you think about Tesla technology? Because, this guy, Bill Lynn, believes that thereís going to be an invasion on July 5th, 1998. Do you believe that the world is going to end on July 5th, 1998, as the teachings of William Cooper, William Cooper, Robert Anton Wilson, have taught us? Do you believe that aliens are going to come on July 5th, 1998, but it isnít actually aliens, itís actually the government flying these UFOs, and the government is going to round us up.
Well, according to the Church of the Subgenius it is July 5th 1998. But itís the Xists from planet X who are coming, and everybody who is tithing away one-tenth of their salary every month to the Church of the Subgenius will be picked up by the pleasureships of the love goddess and taken to the planet of immortality, and everybody who is not tithing to the Church of the Subgenius will be destroyed by atomic deathrays, and thatís known as the rupture, and that theory is just as plausible to me as the one you mentioned.

Because Tesla technology was said by this guy, named Bill Lynn, to have forced Hitler into World War II. Like, Hitler was bribed to enter World War II. And, well, actually ... is Hitler dead, Robert Anton Wilson?
Well, if heís not, heís about 106, now, and probably fairly harmless. Iíve never heard of anybody 106 who could do much serious harm.

When did Hitler die?
I think he died in the bunker in 1945. Iím sorry, Iím rather conservative about that issue. I agree with the majority of historians.

So, you don't think that he was at a Worldís Fair, in Albuquerque in 1967 with Eva Braun?
No no, that was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Robert Anton Wilson, what am I gonna do if my dadís a Mason? What am I gonna do if I suspect my dad is a Mason? What should I do?
Well, what do you want to do?

Well, how can I spot a Mason? You know, what should I do if my dadís a Mason? What should I do, Robert Anton Wilson?
Well, I wouldnít do anything about it. Ask him if you can join.

How can you spot a Mason, if people out there are wondering what a Mason looks like? You know, are there any characteristics, for the listeners out there in Radioland? How can people spot Masons?
Well, they all have three eyes. The third eye is generally closed, but if you see somebody whose forehead is very furrowed itís not from worries; itís because theyíre trying to conceal their third eye.

Why have people always blamed the Masons? They have three eyes! Everyoneís kinda teasing them! Come on, they are nice guys. I mean, Mr. Cunningham on Happy Days wearing a Fez. What did he do wrong?
I donít know. As far as I can make out, most of the anti-Masonic propaganda in the world emanates from extremely paranoid right-wing Christians who are paranoid about everybody else, not just the Masons.

Is there anybody whoís not mad at you?
Yeah, Iíve got thousands and thousands of friends and fans all over the world.

Have you done anything to get Masons mad?
No. Iíve never gotten a nasty letter from a Mason. Iíve got lots of nasty letters from fundamentalist Christians and from fundamentalist materialists and from Marxists.

I was looking through some newsgroups on the Internet and some Christian guy had a quote from you... he was quoting you. He was quoting Robert Anton Wilson. A fundamentalist Christian was quoting you!
Oh yeah, a lot of them have been plagiarizing me for years, without quoting me directly. A lot of them have found that selective passages from my books, out of context , are very useful to them. I donít mind that at all, I regard that as a marvelous joke.

Have you ever snuck into a Masonic lodge and maybe seen a Mason sacrificing a rabbit?
Iíve been in Masonic lodges, Iíve spoken at Masonic lodges, but Iíve never seen anyone sacrificing a rabbit. IĻve never seen anyone copulating with a goat. I donít believe any of those legends.

Are you jealous that Masons have secret places to meet, like at Disneyland? Isnít there a secret place hidden above the Pirates of the Carribean? They have a little club, The 33 Club, where the Masons hang out, Robert Anton Wilson?
I think that everyone has the right of free association. Iím against forcing people to open their doors and let anybody in; thatís where Iím most at odds with the liberals in my country. I think that everybody has the right to associate with who they want to associate with.

Is there a secret club at Disneyland that you are aware of Robert Anton Wilson?
All I know about Disneyland is that above Snow Whiteís castle, Disney is supposed to be cryogenically preserved, in a special room above Snow Whiteís castle. I have a friend who goes to Disneyland every New YearĻs Eve and drops acid. And when he reaches the peak, he goes and talks to Mickey Mouse about all of his problems, and Mickey never fails. Mickey always gives him the correct answer to guide him for the next year. Heís the only man I know of whose god is visible, tangible and gives clear unambiguous answers. Heís a happy man. I wish I had a religion that worked that well.

Youíre Robert Anton Wilson, arenít you, Robert Anton Wilson?
Unless Iím an android impersonating him.

Whatís been going on with space migration? The space migration SMILE scenario. Has anything new been happening with that?
Well, yeah, thereĻre more and more people who have spent time in that space station up there. Weíre learning more and more about human beings in space. And weíre having a lot of Mars probes going off in the near future.

What do you think about all of the Mars probes blowing up ... you mentioned the face on Mars?
Itís Moses Horowitz ...

Yeah, the face on Mars. Guys like Richard Hoagland believe that there are giant cities made of glass on Mars, big skyscrapers. And the same thing on the moon, although the glass is now broken. And that the Martian moon, Phobos, is really a giant hollow spaceship, and everytime a probe goes near Mars, probes get blown away, because they get too close to Phobos. Are you aware of this, Robert Anton Wilson?

I must prefer Professor Finniganís, who I really think has really demonstrated that the face on Mars is Moses Horowitz.

Do you believe that man landed on the moon?
Uh, yeah, Neil Armstrong, a 33rd degree Mason. Isnít that a funny coincidence?

But wasnít the moon landing faked? Faked! In Area 51! Robert Anton Wilson, donít let us down!
It wasnít the moon landing that was faked; it was World War II. World War II never happened. It was a conspiracy between Ghandi, representing the IIluminati on the Earth plane, and Madame Blovatski representing the IIluminati on the astral plane. And they put everybody in a deep trance and showed old films of World War I, and everybody thought that there was a new World War. That was to scare us into not having any more world wars. So, the revisionists who claim that the holocaust never happened, they only got part of the picture; they are not skeptical enough. Not only did the Holocaust never happen, the whole damn war never happened. There was never a Hitler or a Winston
Churchill. It was all faked.

And the opinions expressed are those of Robert Anton Wilson, and only Robert Anton Wilson. Robert Anton Wilson, does John Travolta believe that God is a reptile brain, directing us from the far side of the galaxy?
No, John Travolta believes that God is a dead man buried at the bottom of the Pacific, named L. Ron Hubbard.

But isnít that what the Scientologists believe, that God is a giant reptile brain, directing us from the far side of the galaxy, and theyíre totally frightened by Prozac? Why are Scientologists so frightened by Prozac, Robert Anton Wilson?
Well, everytime Travolta wins an award, which he has a distressing habit of doing lately, because heís a good actor. He keeps winning awards. Everytime he gets up he thanks L. Ron Hubbard; he doesnít thank the reptile brain on the other side of the galaxy. So I think L. Ron Hubbard is his god.

Did L. Ron Hubbard ever get interviewed by you, while you were working for Playboy, Robert Anton Wilson? Did you ever make contact, you and L. Ron Hubbard?
No, thank God, Iíve never had any contact with him and Iíve had as little contact as possible with any member of Scientology.

So, Robert Anton Wilson, who will spot the widowís son? Whatís the new inquisition? Robert Anton Wilson?
I find some of your questions pretty hard to field.

Ah, speaking of fields, as W.C. Fields said, "Sometimes you have to take the bull by the tail and look the facts in the face." Well, since the Vancouver-based series The X-Files has been mentioning "23" quite frequently, has this increased your book sales, at all?
I wonít know until I get my next royalties statement, but Iíve noticed how much theyíre borrowing from me, but theyíre not the only ones. Iím the most frequently "borrowed from" author around, I sometimes suspect.

So, youíre not a paid critical consultant for The X-Files?
Oh, no, they just read my books and use whatever they can get away with.

How do you feel about somebody ripping you off like that? Are they doing a good job ripping you off? Could they do better?
Well, hell, theyíre not as funny as I am. The only thing that treats these things as humourously as I do in my books is the film Repo Man. Thatís got everything The X-Files has, and plus comedy. Which, I think you could say of my books ... having everything The X-Files has, plus comedy!

Have you been in contact with the "Hef" at all? What was it like hanginí out with him in the seventies? Have you had any contact with him since then? Did you hang out with him in the Ď70s, when you were an editor at Playboy?
Well, no. I met him two or three times. The only time he ever said anything that ever stuck with me was, "Man, what a crazy shirt." I was wearing a yellow silk shirt. [laughs] And thatís the most intimate communication we ever had together. Sorry!

Did you ever hang at the Playboy Mansion? Like in the hot tub with James Caan at your side, smokiní a nice one?
I visited the mansion a few times, but I never got into the hot tub.

Was James Caan in the hot tub?
I dunno. [laughs] I went there a few times when Hefner invited all of the editors of the magazine to come over to see a new movie, before it premiered, and otherwise, I worked at the office, and didnít have anything to do with Hefner. Sorry.

What is your required reading list? A listener called earlier in the show and wondered what your required reading list is. Robert Anton Wilsonís recommended reading list, do you have anything?
As the matter of fact, in the latest issue of my magazine Trajectories, which is available at P.O. Box 700305, San Jose, CA, 95170. Send $20, and you get 4 issues. In my next issue, I have a recommended reading list, which is not the greatest books or my favourite books, but books that I wish everybody would read, so that they would be more rounded. And the list is, if I can remember it:
Ulysses, by James Joyce; The Cantos of Ezra Pound; Science and Sanity, by Alfred Gorgibski; Shakespeare; Ovid; Chaucer; Justine by De Sade, because it raises all of the questions that nobody can answer; two books by Nietszche, The Anti-Christ and Twilight of the Idols; The Open Society and Its Enemies by Sir Carleton Popper; and Gulliverís Travels, by Jonathan Swift.

Winding up here, Robert Anton Wilson, Iíve heard that it isnít George Washington on the American dollar bill, but instead itís Adam Weishaupt, founder of the IIluminati. Is that true?
Well, thereís some evidence of that. And the people who want to know more about that can find the evidence presented in my novel IlIuminatus, which is widely available in all the better bookstores.

So, no little hints for us just now, if we donít have any bucks, Robert Anton Wilson. A little hint about George Washington and Adam Weishaup?
I prefer people to read the books, because I donít get paid for these interviews, but I do get paid by the book.

But weíre paying for this phone interview! Weíre paying to interview you. Itís costing us by the hour. So, winding up here, Robert Anton Wilson, have you heard any good conspiracy theories lately that you havenít written books about, so that you wonít have to charge us for it.
Well, my current favourite conspiracy theory is the one that Hoagland is putting forth, that NASA has tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of evidence that there is life on Mars, and theyíre hiding it all. I canít imagine why they would hide it; his explanations on why they would hide it donít make make much sense to me. But I think thatís the most amusing and bizarre conspiracy theory around.

Robert Anton Wilson, would you, lastly, leave us with something special, for the listeners out there in Radioland? Would it be possible to give an indulgence to the listeners out there and make them popes. Please, a little indulgence for everybody?
Yes, as a Discordian pope, I have the authority to make everybody a pope who hears my voice. If you really and truly want to become a Discordian pope, then just repeat after me: Spectacles, testicles, brandy, cigars. You are now absolutely infallible and must excommunicate every other Discordian pope you meet, because we Discordians must stick apart.

Is there anything else you would like to add to the people out there in Radioland? Why should people care about Robert Anton Wilson? Why should they care about you?
Well, I tell you, "sex" is not the answer. "Sex" is the question; "yes" is the answer. So come see me.

Thanks so much, Robert Anton Wilson. Right now weíre going to end with a song by Buddy Knox, called "I Think Iím Going to Kill Myself." So, keep on rockiní in a free world and doot doola doot doo≠
Doot doo.

Back to the Menu! RAW picture by Lincoln Clarkes

Talk about this interview in thee NardNest Discusion Forum!